takeheart wrote on November 12, 2022 at 6:27 AM

That would be an understatement. It's not enough to say that governments and policy makers are unhelpful to solve problems. They create these problems. Check out "Planet of the humans 2019"

Zenen wrote on November 12, 2022 at 4:32 PM

I don't have the time to watch a documentary, but it seems like you're on the same page as Wahaha and smallpond in the opinion that corrupt governments are creating problems for the common population and not acting with citizen's interests in mind.

Mind giving me the thesis of Planet Of The Humans?

takeheart wrote on November 12, 2022 at 4:55 PM

Speed up the film, Zenen, quick. Click? Pic? Look, Eye, Now, Flick, Here, There, Swift, Pace, Up, Down, In, Out, Why, How, Who, What, Where, Eh? Uh! Bang! Smack! Wallop, Bing, Bong, Boom! Digest-digests, digest-digest-digests. Environmentalism? One column, two sentences, a headline! Then, in mid-air, all vanishes! Whirl man’s mind around about so fast under the pumping hands of publishers, exploiters, broadcasters, that the centrifuge flings off all unnecessary, time-wasting thought!

Wahaha wrote on November 12, 2022 at 11:13 AM

The problem with government is the blatant corruption. I think the things you perceive as bloat were things added to reduce the corruption, but it isn't working.

The core problem is that democracy is an awful system, where you essentially give power to the people that have a big influence. So essentially rule of the rich by proxy of exchangeable puppets.

To solve the core problem of government being "incompetent" you have to solve the corruption, which you cannot do in a democracy.

Compare this with a monarchy where at the end of the day you have someone actually responsible. In a monarchy you at least need to keep everyone from hating you so much that they would go out and kill you. Not in a democracy. If any puppet gets a bit of heat the puppet is exchanged and then it is business as usual.

If the puppet tries doing things itself you just assassinate it.

The core problem is democracy.

It is designed to divide a people who should stand united. To divide them on as many issues as possible.

Zenen wrote on November 12, 2022 at 4:27 PM

Okay, while I don't know if we see democracy the same way (I think that what we refer to democracy is actually oligarchy wearing a funny hat), I definitely agree that we need to do away with systems that divide populations that need to stand together and fight for common goals - the net survival & prosperity of as much life on this planet as possible is what I'm after. What banner do you want to see people unifying under?

Wahaha wrote on February 10, 2023 at 10:49 PM

What banner do you want to see people unifying under?

I was hoping common sense, but that ship has sailed. At this point there's only a small chance for National Socialism and a big chance for Islam. Either way it won't be so much unification as subjugation.

smallpond OP wrote on November 12, 2022 at 9:20 AM

Yes, I probably disagree with that. It's not that they're bloated, it's that they've been completely corrupted so that they no longer serve the interests of citizens. Big government is probably the only way to attempt to tackle societal problems, but unfortunately the world seems to lack benevolent dictators.

We're here on this website, that's all we need to agree on. There is no need to establish common ground.

Zenen wrote on November 12, 2022 at 4:43 PM

I'm reading your response like you chose to interpret what I said in a controversial way so that you might have a reason to disagree with me. Regardless - I agree with you, I think that what you call 'corruption' is a consequence of what I call 'bloat'.

I also think that governance is a useful & necessary tool to getting human beings to work together... I have just never seen it scale past a city-state level without starting to collapse in on itself.

Re: establishing common ground, finding agreement is what makes the difference between this website being a platform being an excuse to get into arguments on the internet versus a place where free speech can be used as a tool to bring disparate groups into alignment so that we can talk about things like "how do we learn to self-govern and create systems that work for everyone rather than only the wealthy?"

Question: what do you think about digitalized democracy? It seems to be a way to create a "belevolent dictator" that is resistant to some of the corrupting influences that humans fall victim to.

smallpond OP wrote on November 12, 2022 at 8:56 PM

If we're more in agreement, all good. There are many people who consider government inherently evil, and simply want as little of it as possible.

place where free speech can be used as a tool to bring disparate groups into alignment

You seem to be on some odd do-gooder crusade... I hope that feels nice. If you want to bring groups into alignment, focus on the people physically close to you who actually matter, then slowly work outwards.

This website doesn't need to come into alignment, it just needs to be a place where people can speak. It's far better that we all disagree as much as possible. Coming into alignment means becoming just another moronic circlejerk unaccepting of outsiders.

Zenen wrote on November 12, 2022 at 10:39 PM

Yea, working on my real life communities for the most part.

I am actually trying to influence the world in what I consider to be a positive direction, maybe this isn't a great place to be spending my time and energy

smallpond OP wrote on November 13, 2022 at 6:35 PM

Yeah, if you want all the misfits here to hold hands so you can lead us into a brighter future, I don't like your chances.

If you just want somewhere online where people can speak freely, maybe ramble is worth a little time.

A technologically advanced society is choosing to destroy itself. It's both fascinating and horrifying to watch

Zenen wrote on November 12, 2022 at 2:02 AM