Recent comments in /f/lokinet

dontvisitmyintentions said ()

Reddit- and discord-only is a deal-breaker. If I wanted to get or give help, I have every expectation I'd be banned without recourse or reason, and I likely wouldn't be able to tell whether the project guys did it or not. (I assume telegram is similar, since it's not open.)

Also, their rebranding is just flashily confusing enough to turn me off. "Oxen is many things" and using a generic noun for a name reinforces my impression that they are going for branding at the expense of comprehensibility.

This is what happens when a project goes after r/bitcoin instead of IRC.

Also, I looked at what it does to dns, and I'm not impressed with how much it touches, invoking resolveconf and systemd-resolve. It seems they aren't concerned with leaking data outside of a closed browser, like the Tor Browser is set up to be.

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Rambler said () (edited )

Ohhh, good writeup, as always.

My biggest gripe and one of the reasons I sort of moved away from using it was simply how it handles DNS requests. I found that it was what was constantly changing my /etc/resolv.conf to use Cloudflare for DNS when not accessing Lokinet.

Can you confirm if that's still happening? Go to https://dnsleaktest.com/ or any other similar tool and let us know the output. What does your /etc/resolv.conf file show as your nameserver(s)?

Even when connecting to my own VPN service, etc. My DNS was leaking to Cloudflare when the Linux desktop client was installed. Tired of having to manually change it back and forth to access Lokinet and to access the clearnet without my DNS going to CloudFlare, I decided to just stop using it.

With that said, I hope they fix that. It may be isolated to Linux users only, I have no Windows devices to test. And I hope them success in what they want to achieve.

BUT, I couldn't shake the feeling that the goal was more to create a cryptocurrency than it was to create a network that solves any of the problems of pre-existing networks of similar fashion (Tor, I2P, Yggdrasil, ZeroNet, etc) and was put off by the high cost of running service nodes, registering domains, etc.

I run an I2P router, I run a Yggdrasil node, I'm spinning up some Tor stuff soon to test. I understand the concept of wanting to reduce the likelihood of sybill attacks by 'making it too expensive' for any single party or government to 'control the network' by deploying a large number of nodes to analyze traffic... But let's be real. Governments have unlimited budgets (not "really", but you know what I mean...) when it comes to things like 'cyber security' and 'national security'. Just because some script kiddie isn't going to spend tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to deploy a bunch of relays, exits, or other network nodes to analyze traffic doesn't mean governments won't. They will. And they do this on other networks already, whether publicly or not. They'd be stupid not to. (Not that I condone it, but it's worth pointing out that it's very likely)

I'm not 100% dismissing it yet. I could be wrong on all fronts and five years from now I may be kicking myself for not buying Oxen when it was $0.28 or whatever it was when I first got interested in it. I might be upset that I dropped Loki support for this site, and it could potentially be the number one traffic source to Ramble. But, I sort of doubt it. This site got about the same amount of traffic from Lokinet that it did from Yggdrasil which is a network without all the suspected venture capitalist funding (No one would ever answer me who/how everything was being funded for Loki) and without the coin attached. I never cared enough to actually dig deep into the origin/funding behind the network.

Furthermore, it's a bit worrisome when their only online community is a very tiny subreddit ( https://old.reddit.com/r/oxen_io/ 588 subscribers). I think they have a Discord (eww, gross) and of course, Session. I had my own issues with Session but as far as I know it was never production ready and was still in beta so I can't really complain. I like the idea of Session more than I like the idea of another anonymity network that requires buying their crypto to do common things.

The network is a business first, and everything else is second.

That's the first time I've really gone on a Loki rant in public, but that's sort of how I've been feeling lately. Someone please come prove me wrong.

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Rambler said () (edited )

I'll try to knock it out soon. Been busy with my real job + my other project. I'll have to install Lokinet in a VM since I no longer run it locally since it causes DNS leaks when you're connected to a VPN. I'll spin up a VM and see if it still does it. If not, I'll transfer the old config over so the site resolves again over the network.

Sorry, I kind of forgot about it to be honest. I'll take a stab at it now.

EDIT: Disregard. It's enough work right now keeping the I2P, Tor and Yggdrasil networks monitored, up and playing nicely, none of which require any DNS based modifications for resolving addresses over their respective networks. I may work up a solution that I'm more comfortable with using, but for now, I'm going to (possibly temporarily) stop promoting lokinet access / support. (IE remove it from the forum footer and update the wiki the reflect the change).

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Rambler said ()

Yeah, it's been down since I moved the site over to a new server.

I can't run Lokinet locally to test it out, because on Linux it wants to overwrite /etc/resolv.conf and change the nameserver to resolve .loki stuff. But what this does is cause DNS leaks with my VPN and cause Cloudflare to resolve clearnet stuff unless I change it back by hand. Got tired of fussing with it and just chattr +i /etc/resolv.conf so Lokinet couldn't overwrite it. This, in turn, broke my ability to access Lokinet.

If you want, I'll copy the old configuration over this weekend and if you're around you can tell me if it's working or not. Was just low on my priority list. We can coordinate in IRC2P since I see you around there a bit.

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Rambler OP said ()

I've thought about an XMPP group as well, and may still launch something like that in the future. For now, I'm limiting the amount of servers / projects I need to care for. If someone else wants to set one up, I'd be happy to join and chit-chat here and there as I'm able. It doesn't have to be ramble branded, just any ramble-specific group on a pre-existing XMPP server would suffice.

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BlackWinnerYoshi said ()

So, the Ramble Public Chat on Session is no more for now. And sure, #ramble on IRC2P is there, but what about making an XMPP group chat? XMPP has been around since 1999, and is more stable than Session. And yes, people would need to make an account with username and password, but I don't think it would be a problem. Also, I have sent an e-mail to trustedsetup at protonmail dot com to update Session Open Group Directory to cross out session.ramble.pw.

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boobs said ()

nothing has ever stopped anyone from running a network fork with no staking requirement, it has always been supported but there has never been enough interest for it to materialize. I wish someone would step up but no one has yet.

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Rambler said ()

I'm still confused as to what is even required (cost wise) to run stuff on the network and contribute. Is there even a chart or graph somewhere that says, "To do this, it requires this much Oxen"? I know to register a .loki domain was or is 30-Oxen which was about $15/USD at last check weeks ago

And the reward aspect intrigued me as I wanted to have some Oxen to just have, but I have no way to get Oxen that is convenient to me, apparently, I just never felt like jumping through the hurdle of buying BTC, converting, etc and dealing with the loss in fees when I'm already springing money for a server. So I have to get some other coin, convert to Oxen, use that Oxen then to give to the network so I can contribute network resources that are already costing me money to the network, in the hopes that I will earn back what I originally contributed?

If all I'm doing is wanting to contribute network resources to projects I like and support it's easier to just support I2P, Yggdrasil and Tor and I can still pat myself on the back for doing some digital good.

I still feel like the interest is more in the coin than the network at this point. And that's not inherently bad or wrong.

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boobs said ()

the reward aspect sure did grow the network to be large in a short time and you can't have that with no skin in the game.

mitigating state sponsored actors was never in the threat model it was actually an explicit non goal.

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Rambler said ()

Awesome. I think I responded to you.

I'm not sure what the cause was, as everything was up and running on the server including the docker image. I pulled the latest update and that seemed to have fixed it. Guess I'll subscribe to their github for release notifications via email and update as needed.

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Rambler said () (edited )

Try now...

edit: Well, fuck. I don't know. Updated the install in case they pushed out a network update that broke old installs. Not sure what would have happened 7 days ago as it appears that is the last time a message was received. The server has been up for 24 days, hasn't been down or had any network interruptions since I deployed it.

session.ramble.pw loads now, but the chat doesn't appear to be working.

edit2: I'm not sure. It may be working, it may nto be. The Android app doesn't show any of my contacts any only the ramble chat. Not sure where the hell my contacts went. Then the desktop client shows everything and is trying hard to resync all the old messages from the other public chats. I've got super slow internet so the desktop client is practically useless right now while it pulls all these messages to update. I'll report back soon.

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Rambler said ()

True. But I thought they had some venture funding behind the project and that it wasn't funded by the coins. I thought the coins were a way to monetize the efforts and to pay back the investments made into the network development.

I'm not sure where I read that so it's quite possibly complete bullshit and I can't seem to find it myself now but that's that.

I'm still not convinced staking is required for most things... Any agency wishing to run enough nodes to analyze traffic isn't going to be stopped by a monetary cost of doing that, nor would any malicious non-government actor anyway. Servers cost money already, and if you wanted to deploy 100 of them that's already expensive before the staking requirements. The 3-letter groups won't be stopped by that and will happily file the paperwork for a funding request within their agency to allocate funds to their monitoring efforts.

With all that said, I really want to see them succeed. More networks and alternatives to the big tech and regular internet as we know it is needed. And there is nothing wrong with making money. It takes time, effort, and a lot of talent to build what they're doing.

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boobs said () (edited )

One can run relays without a staking requirement on a network fork but there was never enough interest for it to materialize. Like it or not the coin stuff worked and it funds the development.

Building a network from zero is not as easy as you think, especially when the entire community you are trying to woo is by default skeptical of everything the devs do.

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spc50 said ()

Shitcoins continue to wreck otherwise useful and viable projects.

This is what happens when you put greedy anti social control freaks in charge.

Tech needs more forced diversity. Not just the whole include minorities, hire non males as managers (no trannies don't count as diversity hire FFS).

We need more apolitical, non sexually deviant, less addiction, less autism, less of the corrupted by the Uni types.

Basically need a sliver of the old corporate hard worker, a bit of the regular everyday eccentric and a whole bunch of regular people.

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Rambler said () (edited )

Nothing, really. It seems that they're more interested in developing a crypto-currency than building a network.

The staking requirements to run relays, have a human readable URL, etc is all very off putting and seemingly does more for the coin than it does for the network. (In my opinion)

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